DAVID AMICO
Part Three: Team Player
N. So tell me about those four years when you were in New York. I never heard much about that.
I went to Cal State Fullerton, undergraduate, and then to Hunter in New York. That was graduate school. Hunter college. '68. I studied with Ray Parker and Doug Olsen. Painters. I had a class with Mary Miss. But my favorite teacher was Robert Barry. He was just great, a real professional guy. You know, I was getting a lot of ribbing because I was trying to make paintings. I was doing Schnabelesque kind of paintings, very physical, rug paddings, plastic, and I was schlepping them in on the subway. The art students thought I was out of it. Because it was the height of conceptual art. And he would defend me, and he was conceptual. His open mindedness was something I'll never forget. He, in my mind, was a great teacher. He wasn't just focused on his own thing.
When I left California to go to Hunter, I had no idea what a New York artist was all about. I had the image in my head of what people had told me and read. I was reading books on contemporary art, and the magazines, and I was in love with Eva Hesse and the whole idea of moving into Soho. I go to Hunter College and I find that everything is way more expensive than all of this information that was available was talking about. The first day at Hunter, I was given a lecture by a woman about calling women artists 'girls'. She was giving me examples of West Coast artists and asking me what I thought of their work. And I had known them and met them and responded to their work, but I was referring to all of them as being girls. And she quickly corrected me and that was a shock to me at that time, to realize the difference in the dialogue that I was going to be experiencing in New York prior to what I had. It was loose and it was kind of funny and interesting and serious as well on the West Coast. But in New York it was very serious. Everything was scrutinized. The facilities at Hunter were not like anywhere else, they were just the bare minimum at that time. They have changed since that time. You went to class. You basically met your professor at the beginning of the semester. You divided up into a sort of a field trip schedule throughout the semester and you met at each other's studios. And if you didn't have a studio, you brought your work to the school. It was very professionally oriented.
The students were really sharp. The students that were in that program at the time were extremely on top of it. I didn't have a studio. I was painting so I would have to bring my work in on the subway. And it was hilarious. But it was that experience that a few teachers that I respected, who would encourage me to continue to do that. And one of them was Robert Barry. Even though he was doing conceptual work at the time. I had never taken a class from a professional artist who was a conceptual artist. I had no idea. I saw it, was interested in the work, but to listen to him talk about theory and dialogue and the nature of work and why can't work not have these physical properties, and what is work anyway. It was fascinating. And then on top of it to find someone who was open minded and encouraging, I was endeared to him. I respected him a great deal.
Ray Parker was an experienced painter. He talked about painting not in terms of making it or product or its physical properties, but in its poetic resonance, its importance. He had a relationship with nature that he was exploring with his stuff. And he worked everyday. He was an everyday working artist looking for the impact of his work. Doug Olsen was a younger artist. He was also involved with reductive painting at the time. Large scale. Believing in what he was doing, full out
It was different. The students were different. The teachers were different. I was lucky enough to be working with Susan Peterson and John Mason in the ceramic department. It was a job that I got to support myself through school. And John told me all about Ferus because he had been through the Ferus experience and what was going on, things that I had never heard about when I was in L.A. So I was getting this education about New York and LA at the same time through him. Susan was a phenomenal force in the ceramic world, interviewing artists from all over the world, writing books.
The belief that they had and what they represented, and how they implemented it ... I believed in art but I didn't understand this dedication that they had. The dedication that Susan represented, the dedication of John, Ray, Mary Miss. It was different. They were dedicated unequivocally to the power and the impact and the importance of art. I used to drive Susan out to Long Island on the holidays, and I met Elaine De Kooning and Harold Rosenberg. I was just a kid and I would listen to them talk. They never talked about the good old days or anything like that. They were very bright people, knowledgeable on multiple subjects. It was amazing. It was the New York you read about. It was the New York you hear about. It's what happens when quality gets together and relates to one another because it understands one another. It's the reason for that. It's a survival mechanism. It happens here. It's that quality magnet. What they talked about, who they talked about, what they related to ... It had nothing to do with what I was looking at with my friends in school [but] it drew me to an understanding. I've seen it with artists in other fields as well.
M. Why did you come back here?
I was broke. Financially New York wiped me out. I was a student. I got there. I had no idea. I was part of that generation of artists that believed that if you wanted to be an artist, you could go to school and learn what you needed to know. And I had teachers who were willing to do that. (laughs) And it was wonderful. It was really ideal. City University at the time, was basically free. All you had to do was prove residency and anyone could go to school there, anyone in New York. They had to change that when they went into debt. I went to Hunter. I was going to study with Robert Morris initially, but he was on sabatical. And I met all these other wonderful people that were there, part of the school. I came back because I needed to make some money to go back and that's when I found downtown L.A. Some of my friends, Steve Sotnick had opened a gallery on Seventh Street and was doing some work with some artists, some interesting people. I saw a summer show that he did with Devo. He had the band in a summer show. This was back in '77 or so. I just felt there was a potential for a lot of energy, what I saw with him and some of the people that were down here, a sort of enthusiasm about quality and an alternative. And most of us knew as we were getting out of school that there was not going to be much for us to get into. We had no experience. We weren't going to be teachers.Most of the conversations that were happening at that time were about quality. People were interested in being in a place and doing work. And it was exciting and very inexpensive. It was ridiculous. It coincided with a vacancy rate that was happening here with some of these smaller industries. It was just a great little piece of luck to have coincide. And then while I was downtown I met artists like yourself that were moving, that were in Hollywood, and people coming out of Cal Arts. And I quickly recognized that the West Coast was doing some interesting things. We did the shows in my studio with Jane Reynolds, because of a mutual connection we had with this one individual. We were able to do shows, carry on a communication. A network was forming with artists. Nancy came down from San Francisco and you were in that building with Mike Kelley, people were starting to join LACE. People were doing art for reasons that didn't become popularized and certainly weren't the reasons that people were talking about in the later part of the 80s when it hit.
M. One of the things that I was interested in talking to you about is that you were here before I was...
Not by much, though.
M. ...but when I got here I was already aware of you.
N. (to David) I met you in 1980 and you had been there for two years.
I met you through Mike [Kelley], and I knew Mike right away. I met Mike through ...
N. ...David Askevold who you met in New York?
No, I met him here when we were doing the shows in the studios.
N. With Jenny Holtzer? What did they call themselves?
Yeah, it was like a law group. I thought it was just their last names, Fend, Fitzgibbon, Holzer, Nadin, Prince and Winters. Peter Fend was with them. Ilene Segaloff was in the first show that we put together was as a result of Jane Reynolds, actually. We both knew Alan De Arcangelo's son, Chris De Arcangelo , and he was a catalyst for all of us, actually. Allan D' Arcangelo was a pop art painter in New York and his son was working for John Weber. I met him when I was in New York when I was going around to the galleries. And he took me into the back rooms of John Weber a couple of times. And I saw Lucio Posey's work and different people, the Italians and what not, that Weber was showing. And he told me about Panza and all the stuff that was going on that I had never heard about. And when I came back to L.A., I met Jane and Jane knew him as well.
N. So that's where that connection is.
Chris De Arcangelo had made the connection with those five artists. And so we all got together and just did this thing. And what I respected about that situation was that the people from New York were a little bit older than me at the time, but they came out, were very professional about what they were doing. Jenny was extremely professional. She amazed me. Louise, Richard, Robin, Colleen, a partner of his at the time. These people had no place to go in terms of being connected into the system, yet they were handling what they were doing with the utmost professional kind of respect. They approached everything ... It just ... It was great. I was just very impressed by it. And it did cause some local misunderstanding.
N. Yeah. Thank god.
But it was good for me. I've always had people come into my life somehow, that have meant a kind of thing I could believe in, a kind of idealism, representing some level of quality, trying to answer or elevate themselves or elevate the situation. Whether they were successful or not – yes, they were all successful. We wanted to do a show in the studio and I had just gotten dropped from a gallery. So we did this show with Ilene Segaloff and Joe Potts and Jane and myself from out here, and from New York came Louise Lawler...
N. Who then went up to do a show in San Francisco and that was how I met him.
Right. And this was in '79.
N. That sounds about right.
It was like years before anybody here would even ... It put a bee in the bonnet of a lot of people. I walked into L.A. at that time not realizing that L.A. had already been making these moves for some kind of recognition ...
N. The young turks group with [Steven] Seemayer and those people?
Yeah, I had no idea. I missed ... I did not see the articles that had come out with all these people, and not even the young ones but the older ones from Santa Monica. I didn't even know that that was going on. So I come out and we just do this group show and that's where I think I was somewhat duped into this. I didn't know that it was as volatile as it really was.
N. You were duped by the New York people?
No, not by the New York people. I think some of the L.A. people.
N. But not Jane Reynolds!... (laughter) You know she had a show at Foodhouse? Of a big lollypop...Did you see that?
Yeah, I was there. I've kept in touch with Jane.
N. Yeah, she's an interesting artist. Did she show at Kuhlenschmidt? That's right. And you showed with Jancar / Kuhlenschmidt. I remember that show you did there. The work that you were doing when I first met you was pretty personal, I think and a lot of it was about your life, in a way.
I think a lot of it still could be looked at that way. I was never tough enough for the conceptual stuff and never tough enough for the angst ridden painters. I was always in between.
N. That neither one would have you, the conceptualists ultimately wouldn't have you and the people that want pretty painting wouldn't have you either.
Or ugly painting, ultimately.
N. You know that was a pretty weird time actually when I look back on it, when I first moved ... stayed here that summer. There was so much stuff going on downtown.
You know, I ran into Louise last year when I went to New York.
N. Louise Lawler?
Yeah. We went out, had dinner. It was wonderful. God, it was a trip. She's got an eleven-year-old son now, Felix. She was telling me about her boy and we were walking along the westside highway. It was just amazing. And she was telling me about her work and what she was doing. It was wonderful to just listen to her again after so many years. She was so down to earth and she was talking about these everyday things. It was like ... this whole star mechanism is so silly.
N. Because in the end all you have is whoever you are.
Yeah, and these people are all just people. Through Doug I've met Sol LeWitt. I've met different people. You read these articles and you expect these obelisks to go up for them. (laughs) The good ones I think really keep a perspective, because they have to.
You have to challenge. Again, I need to make those challenges for myself, professionally and artistically. And I don't know the difference between the two anymore. To me they are both the same. To do good work artistically is to professionally challenge those concepts of what professionalism is.
N. Do you read much criticism?
I read as much as I can but I'm not glued to it. I don't know how I get my information, I just ... I've got some great friends. I've been extremely, extremely lucky. I was pretty rude for a long time. For the first ten years I was pretty ...
N. You thought you were pretty rude?
I thought I was pretty rude. For the last ten years I've been extremely the reverse of that.
N. Is that one of the reasons why you stopped using booze?
Yeah that's part of it. It doesn't help. The older you get ...it's not like I had to go through any kind of thing or had a major problem. I used to milk them before anyway.
N. Yeah. You definitely realize as you get older that you only have a certain amount of energy and you have to learn how to use it. If you don't use it well, then you don't have the extra to go on.
Well, it goes back to the idealism thing. We've all held out for a certain kind of idealism. You have a professional level that you know that you are going to support. I think a lot of people sort of made the art and didn't think about what the art actually looked like, what it does. They were kind of working on what the art was going to do for them. See I'm scared... I worry about the art itself. What really straightens me up is what does that painting look like. What's it going to look like? "You said it went where? Oh my god. It's going to be in that room with those people and that stuff? Wow! I've seen a piece of mine that was sold early through those other dealers, and it looks horrible.
N. You wish some that collections had a newer piece?
Yeah. I wanted to take the piece back and give them another one.
N. And they didn't want it.
No.
N. Because they have to maintain a historical authenticity, which is reasonable.
It's reasonable but what I'm saying is ...
N. ...They should buy a new one as well.
No!
N. Well they should be able to see a comparison.
If I were ...Well ...
M. That's expecting a lot?.
(Laughter) You know, Nancy's right. They really should buy another !...(Laughter)...Mitchell, could you get this part in there?
N. But the thing is that one was a really significant piece for you at that time. It really was.
But all of that stuff pales with the stuff I did afterward. Doesn't hold a candle to it. They wanted the rotten little boy.
N. You have a certain point there, that they wanted a particular thing and they looked for that thing. So it shows a lack of depth in their collection, not about you. They should have another piece.
No, there's too many artists for them to have more than one piece of ... that was ...
N. But it's impossible to not have more than one piece for an artist. Because when you think about the ...
Listen, I'll tell you, I don't worry. People come up to me all the time and the first thing they say if they see I'm from out of town is "Oh, you're a Los Angeles artist." "Yes, I am." "Oh, you show with Ace." "Yes, I do." "Oh, then you must know so-and-so and so-and-so." "Yes." Obviously I know so and so. They make reference to the three or four people that have done really well. Then the next thing is, "Oh, we just purchased our sixteenth piece." And I go, "Oh, that's great. They are great artists and you got good pieces. And, oh, my jeans are a little tight. (Laughter)
N. I think that one of the things that's really too bad in this city, and maybe it's every city, is that we are all so careful to not piss off the people in power. We don't tell them when they are making a really huge mistake. And as an artist, I feel like I have so much better perception of stuff than people ... I mean I have my taste and I have my biases, but they're much broader than most people. And I feel that people are making some huge mistakes and it really really bothers me.
Well, the way I look at it though is like ... hey ... I don't bring them up. If they get brought up to me, I support them. I know after ten years of twenty to twenty-four pieces a year that ... and a lot of that work is gone. There's pieces that I haven't even shown that have been sold out of the gallery. So, I'm one of those guys that'll be dead and gone, and this stuff will be donated to... and they'll get it. So they can do whatever ... You want to stand in front of the marching band in the little glitter outfit throwing up the baton, fine. I'm unfortunately playing the trumpet in the third row from the back. (laughs) It doesn't matter. You know, [I'm a] team player. I was in high school.
N. You always felt you were a team player?
Yeah. Team player. If that's the way it goes, that's the way it goes. I'm not going to take someone else down. I think that what has been contributed out of Los Angeles has been good and exciting. Los Angeles has every reason to feel proud of its contributions. I've been a part of it in my own weird way. We all have. If they want to figure it out now, they're going to come up with those kind of black and white answers. Let them figure it out in fifty years. Those answers aren't going to be so clear.
N. Right, I think that's true. I mean at least I hope that's true. I hope it's not so black and white. I remember you saying something very interesting when you brought a class to my studio ... it was really interesting because ... I tagged along with you to see some other studios but there were people taking pictures. They didn't take a picture at my studio ... but you said something, almost as if I didn't hear you, you said "See, Art doesn't take care of all of its children." (laughs) I thought that was so great.
I said that? God! What did I mean by that? 'Art doesn't take care of all of its children.' I thought that interview with Baldessari around New Years (Los Angeles Times, Calendar Section, Dec. 30, 1996) was very interesting. Because what he said was right on. There should have been, and there need to be, large survey shows of what's going on.
N. You know that's because when you think about it, the curators, the artists, the critics are all going to the same schools. So of course, they are all being taught the same stuff. And so they're all looking for the same stuff and it's very hard for them to be able to open up and see stuff that isn't a part of that educational system.
I think they have egos and they want to build their reputations.
M. Is that in opposition to professionalism?
I think that for all of us ...(pause) ... that's an excellent point. All right, exactly! As a painter if I wanted to generate interest in myself, we all know what to do. You send out pieces for every local thing that you can and you run up your flag pole. You call up people. You do everything you can. You can do that but...Two pieces a month, that's it! I can't even meet that in a year and I'm talking about two great pieces a month.
N. Which means you make one other that you don't really like that much.
Oh shit, six! No, it's gotten better. In the beginning it was at least a one to four relationship. But it's gotten better. For awhile I was getting up to about 50/50. Now I'd say it's a better, but it's harder to work sometimes. You take more into consideration. But again that level of professionalism. The longer you are in this, the more you know what it means. You know what it stands for. And you know what it represents. It's an unyielding reality.
N. I know, I look at everybody's shows and I go "Oh my god, I've been working as long as these people and I don't have as much to show. for it.
I don't know. I'm sure if we went to your house we'd see ...The shame though is that Los Angeles doesn't even know this.
N. Well, that's true too. People are very, overly cautious. They require a pedigree of some sort, they want to know where you came from, what educational system you came through and all that.
It's easy to pull out the well known people that have already been established, and the young children. (laughs) But what we have to do is continue ... and as I say this I'm saying it because I'm saying it to myself, "All right. That's the way it is. That's the way it's going to be. That's the way it will always be. I don't want to hear it anymore." I'm sick of hearing myself go through that stuff. I'm the one that has to come up with these twenty pieces, and some of them are going to have to be kick ass fucking brilliant or I can expect more of the same of what I'm doing. It's not on anybody else's shoulder, it's on mine.
N. So, no excuses.
I can't come out and play tonight. And hey ... when it comes time to do things, you do things with the people you respect. And you stay away from the people that are trying to pump you up and give you some sort of false ...
N. You have to have a lot of discipline and beliefs. That's what professionalism is, really, is discipline.
Yeah. Looking at, realizing that ... Literally when I saw those kids acting the way they were acting and realizing, "God, you know, all my friends in L.A. act this way." All those people downtown that hang out at Al's Bar, or Cocola's at that time, they were like these kids. There's something wrong here. There's nothing wrong with these kids, there's something wrong with...
N. It's okay at twenty, at thirty-five you had better be ...
You better get your priorities ... you better figure that there's some ... you better get it together. It doesn't mean overnight, but ...
N. Well, like you were saying, you took a job at that bar so you could get this studio. You knew what your goal was. And you were willing to do something to get there. But if you'd just gotten a job with no goal, you'd still be doing that. You'd still be hanging out and drinking and having fun.
Yeah, exactly. To say no, to want to get stuff done, even if it's as slow a process as it is. I know that I have to make this next transition. It's just a question of lighting the fire back under myself. It's still a wide open game.
N. So you feel like you need to start over again.
Yeah, I just kind of feel like I need to start over again. And I don't know what that means yet. I really don't know. It's just a feeling I have right now.
N. That's a scary feeling.
Yeah, it is. But ... I feel better, though. I feel better. And the challenge ... I actually feel prepared for it now. I feel like before I was doing it for the sake of being an artist, quote unquote. And I'm not doing it for that anymore. I don't know what that means. I've seen other people act like artists and be responded to as artists. And all this is well, but it's not about any of that stuff. It's just about ... I'm forty-five and I feel that there's a lot of things I'm beginning to recognize in the work that I'm doing that has something to say. I feel that people are getting conservative, that things are getting ... are grinding to a level of cynicism that bothers me and I want to respond to it.